There’s a good deal of (justifiable) dischord and ranting going on around the message boards; and as always it comes down to the old chestnut of “things aren’t as good as we are expecting, so who can we blame for it?!” - it’s of course, a pasttime that football fans enjoy in times good as well as bad - but particularly bad times. Despite acknowledging the reality check that we are, in fact, 3rd in the league and still in with a vague chance of promotion - only a fool would suggest this season has been - to date - anything other than disappointing. Even David Johnson didn’t argue this morning on the radio when Forest were described as “a bit rubbish.”
So, for what it’s worth, let’s run down the hierarchy…
Nigel Doughty - largely a hands-off investor, I certainly think you could look into his history of recruitment and question it, although perhaps you could also question the frequency of managers he gets through. That said, if he recruited the right people, he wouldn’t need to change them. People cite lack of investment or ambition, but to sink millions into a team suggests otherwise - certainly should shoulder a share of the blame, but not the lions share.
Mark Arthur - arrived at Forest from Notts Cricket Club, arguably having completely buggered up Notts Cricket Club. Runs Forest on a day to day basis - and has done so to take us to our joint lowest ebb in our history, indeed, if we don’t go up this season - it WILL be the lowest ebb in our history. Personally (and admittedly, without being in full possession of the ins and outs of what happens at Forest), I place a large chunk of blame at Mark Arthurs door. If any other business in any other industry had performed as badly as Forest then the CEO would be the first head to roll.
Colin Smoulderwood - a tricky one. Can we really blame a manager for not stopping a rot that is several years old? I don’t think so - certainly not after less than a year in the job. I think it’s fair to say his inexperience has showed numerous times this season, be it tactically - or more prominently - during the January transfer window. Most of his dealings were sensible, but to allow Nicky Southall to leave without having a replacement signed and sealed was incredibly naive, especially when the replacement allegedly was Matty Jarvis - from Gillingham - we’ve had experience of their dubious transfer practices before. Of course, could it have been Mark Arthur’s department to sort that out? Possibly. Smoulds certainly shoulders some of the blame, but not as much as Arthur.
The players - my expectation levels of our players was fairly minimal. I was disappointed that Smoulds didn’t come in and clear out a huge swathe of them to be honest, we have seen how our current crop are capable, and easily good enough to excel at this level - but the fact is, frankly some of them can’t be arsed. They buckle under pressure, they don’t operate as a team, and in the majority of games don’t work hard enough (this is as a collective, of course, within the rough there are a few diamonds, I think). I definitely think they deserve a big portion of blame.
The fans - what? us? us long suffering fans? Surely it can’t be our fault?! And no, I don’t think it really is - although I do think that the negativity that engulfs the City Ground so readily is a negative influence. Booing the side off at half time when still level at 0-0 is shameful behaviour from so-called supporters. Whilst I concede it’s a minority, it sounds loud enough when it happens. From now until the end of the season, I would urge fans to unite behind the team - whether they deserve it or not - because at least then we can say we did our job to the best of our ability.
My sketchy calculations apportion the blame thusly:
- 60% to Mark Arthur - he is the man in control of the day to day runnings, clearly this isn’t working - if there was an “Arthur out” campaign then I would sign up for it.
- 20% to the players - they’ve let us down numerous times before without the personnel changing dramatically, I fully expect them to do it again.
- 10% goes to Doughty - he has to take some blame, he appointed a series of questionable managers - and more damningly he appointed Arthur and allows him to continue his shambolic era in charge of the club. 1
- 10% to split between Smoulds and the fans. Smoulderwood hasn’t convinced me yet, but I have hope that he will still, just. The fans do get a share because, frankly, if our job is to support the team - we don’t do it very well sometimes. Other times we are brilliant though.
Of course, this is just my ramblings - other fans I know believe Nigel Doughty to be part of the axis of evil, many will blame Smoulds, others the players - and frankly, since very few of us fans will ever be in full possession of the facts we can only suppose and second-guess who really is responsible for our demise, but it’s no surprise to me that since Mark Arthur took over we’ve followed a pattern not dissimilar to the one that the Cricket club followed during his era there - how do these people maintain well paid positions? Who knows.
I’d be interested in readers’ views via the comments system.
9 March, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Not quite sure what we are blaming people for? Lets wait until the end of the season before we start laying blame. Who knows, we may go up!
9 March, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Of course, you’re right Terry - I’m just joining in the game which I suppose makes me a bit negative. But I’m not just talking about this season.
9 March, 2007 at 2:51 pm
What a spot on arcticle; I couldn’t have written it better or agree with you more.
I’m don’t see ND as some kind of Messiah, but I sure as hell prefer to have him than not - who/where else is this sort of financial backing going to come from? This is something that should be considered by those who constantly call for his head. I’d rather be a struggling affluent (relatively speaking within the confines of League One and Championship - but maybe even some Premiership!) club than a struggling stony broke club. My biggest criticism….. why hasn’t he sacked MA ?!?!?
As you say, in the business/corporate world MA would have long since got the boot - so why on earth is he still here? Do us all a favour Mark, act with some dignity and tender your resignation. I doubt any fan wants you at the club, you bring nothing positive or useful to the table and your track record simply exists to prove this point; dismal failure whether it be NCC or NFFC. Go on, make our day….bye-bye!?!?
The players are a mixed bunch but most of them can be accused of giving less than 100% on occasion. I can live with the lack of skill and quality, but what isn’t acceptable is when they don’t get stuck in or play with love and passion. The one notable exception being Julian Bennet; he has his off days but always gives it 110% and generally leaves the oppo with bruises to prove it. As the saying goes; get your your first tackle in early, even if it’s late. More of this and the Mr S Pearce mentality/approach would serve us well - it’s not as if the oppo are any good either, is it!
CC is doing an okay job, but letting Nicky go was an inexcusable gaff - just make sure it is your last one. Harty pretty much sealed his fate with his lack of savvy in the transfer market, please don’t follow in his foot steps - Marlon going to West Ham, etc. Other than this and the odd bizarre team selection/formation, I think he’s taking us in the right direction and deserves a fair crack of the whip.
Fans wise, let’s save the boos for full-time (if you must boo at all!) and use our massive presence to intimidate the opposition, not demoralise our boys. I’m off to Scunny tomorrow and I’ll be cheering all match, let’s hope we can get something out the game, preferably a win.
)
9 March, 2007 at 2:53 pm
Wow a man after my own heart, i have said these thing before on this site. Couldn’t agree more however slight variation:
Arthur - 65%, if he was workig for Doughty within his other interests he would have been sacked by now
CC - 15%, i agree the rot is deep but the tactics he uses are a disgrace to the passing game we want
Players - 15% some couldn’t care less but it is obvious that they play under instruction ie Commons not out wide and having to defend, he can’t. Either get rid or play to his skills
Doughty -4%, he is the benefactor but he employed Arthur and must have approved the employment of inept Managers
Fans -1% the only reason, i believe, there is booing is not the score but the way we play, if we were 0 - 1 down and playing attractive football it wouldn’t happen
9 March, 2007 at 2:59 pm
I agree to a large extent to what you say there NFFC. You could say that if Doughty was more hands on he perhaps would have more knowlegde as to who the best managers to sign are etc etc but he certainly cannot be blamed for a lack of ambition given the money he has spent and/or the fact we were in so much financial shit in the first place. I can never understand this accusation by people who obviously avoid the full picture.
But why are we blaming anyway? Because despite a flying first third to the season we’ve had a torrid 2nd third which looks like it will undermine the final third. Cruitially though - things do not look like getting better.
No one is taking this club by the scruf of the neck and transforming it. Its just been allowed to toddle on in the hope that things will someday improve. When things go badly its ‘ehm ehm, we’re looking to sign new players’ and that never matierialises. On which point, what’s Pleaty been up to aye? Surely the genius that we were touted when he signed can look further than Matty Jarvis and up to players like Brain Stock, Billy Sharp and countless others who have been rejected from ‘big’ clubs like us and want to go and prove themselves.
The bottom line is that after a series of unfulfilled promises and dissappointment, we have no confidence in the ability of the current staff to move this club forwards, from the top to the bottom.
9 March, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Terry’s right with his sentiments, but only to a point. If at the start of the season you told me that we would be third, only 2 points of automatic promotion and well clear of 7th I would probably have taken that. However our start (allbeit with quite a lot of luck and good fortune involved) did raise expectations beyond the actual ability of our side.
The ‘blame game’ cannot just be isolated to this season. This club has been in decline in actual fact since ‘the summer of discontent’ when Campbell and Gemmill were sold right under Dave Bassett’s nose by those lovely people Wray, Scholar & Soar. We were the ‘Watford’ of the Premier League as a result - absolute certs for relegation.
At this point David Platt took the club deep into debt (although there weren’t many supporters at the time who complained about the spend spend spend policy).
In recent years, Mr Doughty has tried to rewrite history and claim to be the Club’s saviour financially. This isn’t quite true since it was he who helped bankroll Platt and as many clubs in subsequent years proved - administration wasn’t that bad - Leicester & Ipswich spring immediately to mind.
Doughty claimed at the time the club was £12m in debt when he became chairman and £20m when he became owner. He has since invested huge sums of money into the club but only recently actually cleared the debt. It has always confused me why he spent so many years just clearing interest rather than the debt itself. (For example, how many of us have credit card bills. If we owe £1000 on our credit card but more than that in a savings account, we know to clear the debt because the amount of interest you pay far outways any interest you make on your savings.) Even now, Doughty’s investments are loans (clearly in the hope that someday if somebody tries to buy the club then he will get all his investment back). The man is not a benefactor like Jack Walker and therefore should not be painted as such by our supporters.
It is he who chooses our managers and with the exception of Paul Hart none of them have been managers who attempt to play good quality football. I include Calderwood in this - he is far too negative tactically.
It is he who chose Mark Arthur to run the club on a day to day basis. Arthur is a public relations disaster who has no respect amongst the supporters. It is Doughty who allows this man to continue to do his job. Therefore you cannot blame Arthur. It is Doughty who employs him and therefore the ‘60%’ of blame you give Arthur should be passed on to Doughty. By my calculations this changes things to..
5% Supporters (for we are not blameless)
20% The players
75% Nigel Doughty (10% originally given + Mark Arthur’s 60% + 5% for Calderwood who Doughty appointed)
However the real villains of the piece are still Wray, Scholar & Soar who did the dirty all those years ago.
9 March, 2007 at 3:11 pm
I can just see the line of multi millionaire investors snaking around the city ground waiting to take over the club from Doughty
9 March, 2007 at 3:17 pm
A reasonable appraisal IMHO.
The blame game is easy to play, yet if you feel passionately about something you’ve invested time & money into e.g. a wife (sorry, spouse) or football club, then you’re entitled to participate.
I began to support NFFC 50+ years ago and their promotion to the old 1st divsn was a dream realised but let’s be honest with ourselves as devoted fans, without the Clough AND Taylor halcyon days, we’d be looking at things in a very different light now. I’m no nearer knowing how THEY did it (despite reading all the books) but it’ll never be repeated - I’m reconciled to that. We just don’t get the big gates in the East Midlands (even Cloughie complained about that) and no big foreign money is likely to come Trentside, so the most we could expect is to be Premiership team which can survive. But sadly we’re light-years from that right now.
Clubs’ fortunes wax and wain, it happens all the time. Look at Leeds, they must blame O’Leary as we blame Platt for debt, bad buys and a subsequent slide.
I’m grateful for Doughty, I’d rather look at what he’s done for a near-bankrupt club that rented its ground than moan at length about any shortcomings in manager selection.
However, it’s years since I had real confidence in a Forest team, confidence that they’d be consistently good week in, week out. That must come down to strong team management and motivation - skills I remain to be convinced that CC possesses.
And, thanks for maintaining one of best, mature fan sites.
9 March, 2007 at 3:19 pm
My main gripe with the goings on at the City Ground is the sheer ignorance the likes of Doughty and Arthur have towards us the fans. It will be interesting to see what the clubs next move will be come the “dreaded” pricing of season tickets day tickets etc. With many clubs now rightly following suit by introducing attractive packages and lowering tickets for fans, I wonder how us long suffering, rather naïve but loyal fans will fare in this new move?
My love for this club will never diminish though slowly I am feeling less optimistic for the clubs future while under this current cloud. I feel less enthused as a fan now has Doughy has been for the past 4 or 5 years.
The “two predictable speeches a season” are now being treated with the contempt they deserve.
9 March, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Ha-ha, exactly my point “Beeston Red”. It would seem this basic fact continues to elude many of our fellow fans! Maybe your sarcasm will help get the point through, if it doesn’t go straight over their heads?! lol
9 March, 2007 at 3:31 pm
And to Barrow Red, you have worded that magnificently in my view, I hope many more people read that and start to warm to the idea that he is most certainly our “saviour.”
Leave that one with you “Sratch.”
9 March, 2007 at 3:50 pm
NFFC! I don’t see a pie chart? Don’t tell me it was eaten by Commons?
Anyway have a little read at my ramblings here,
http://www.forestforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=16539.0
9 March, 2007 at 3:50 pm
I am in total agreement with Barrow Red, although before Wray, Scholar and Soar actually brought the club, we must also blame the greedy fat shareholders at that time. If I am not mistaken, Grant Bovey(?) at the time had an offer on the table, someone correct me if I’m wrong here.
9 March, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Ok Matt, London Red
what do you want to do about Doughty now then
Its no good moaning about him he is the only immovable object unlike the rest
your suggestions would be interesting
9 March, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Look Beeston, I am not Martin Luther, though I am no mug, It is my opinion that this club has been run badly for many years now and somebody has to be accountable for it, and that person in “my opinion” is Doughty.
I don’t have answers, I certainly don’t have the money, all I am doing is merely responding to the titled notes, with very valid reason. I could if I wished choose to stay quiet, put up, shut up, and hand over my money each week, each season without
Questioning the clubs progress on and off the field, but due to lack of both of the latter, I am left without that choice.
Maybe your right and I and other are wrong, but maybe, just maybe we could be right.
9 March, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Yep - I don’t think we can ever quantify who’s right or wrong, it’s all a matter of opinion afterall, given the quality or reliableness of the information coming out of the City Ground lately.
I always smile and think of the adage Brian Clough came up with “If a manager gets sacked then the chairman that hired him should go too” - that said, I didn’t see Cloughie handing in his registration when he signed a dodgy player
9 March, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Resignation nffc, the ever diplomat, no harm intended.
9 March, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Oh dear! It’s obviously been a long and distressing week!
9 March, 2007 at 4:42 pm
So then Matt (and the other anti-ND’s), for the sake of argument (and to demonstrate a point) let’s say that Beeston Red and I go along with your view point that ND is accountable and to blame for the majority of our problems, what would you like to happen? Get rid, keep but have a moan about what you perceive his shortcomings are?
Just trying to understand your objective? Mine is quite simple; keep the finance/backing (ND) and fire the man responsible for running things on a day to day basis (MA) - after all, you don’t get rid of your bank/shareholders/venture capitialist if a company is failing, you get rid of the CEO/Directors, etc. Correct?!
If that doesn’t work maybe it is time to think again, but at least we’re following a logical and reasoned path - as opposed to just moaning and dishing out blame without a purpose. I agree something has to change, what say you?
9 March, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Blame the players. We have players at Forest who decided that they would only start trying when Megson left. They play with purpose when they want to, on other days they hide as individuals across the pitch and show no desire to win. They are a shameful bunch and only automatic promotion will change my opinion, as to achieve that now will take an almighty effort. If we end up in the playoffs we have no chance, the chances of these players getting through 3 highly pressured matches without folding are minimal.
I just hope that I am wrong.
9 March, 2007 at 5:54 pm
i’ve been saying it for ages now ND and MA OUT!
9 March, 2007 at 6:30 pm
i was at the CG last week watching one of the training sessions when i over heard MA and CC arguing about the Matt Jarvis affair.CC sound like he was really losing it with MA ,CC was adament that with a little extra funding he could get Jarvis,but MA shot him down dead and wouldn,t budge on the matter CC came out that office and was absolutely fuming and didn,t talk to know one for a while.So in conclusion i do fully blame MA and blame CC for the negative tactics on and off the field of play,the players but not all of them are 3rd rate at best and is now showing in their performances,The fans i give 100% thanks for their continued and loyal support through out.My over view ,get rid of MA and the negative tactis put some pride and passion back in to the club and the problem will be solved.
9 March, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Scran
Certainly in the comments I made, I made no call for Doughty to sell up and go. His money did save the club from administration which now carries severe penalties, although at the time those penalties were not in place. At the end of the day, it is HIS club (not ours) and he can do what he sees fit.
However, the point of NFFC’s original article was who is to blame for our problems. As it is Doughty’s club, and the Manager and the Chief Executive are his appointments, their shortcomings become his failings.
Forest supporters do not like or trust Mark Arthur and have not done so for many seasons now. If Nigel Doughty was ‘just another season ticket holder’ (as he liked to be thought of when he first became Chairman) then surely he would know the damage Arthur’s continued tenure is having. You have to ask yourself the question as to why he is still in the job? The answer is he has Nigel Doughty’s full backing. Therefore Nigel Doughty is to blame.
Forest supporters pine for a return to good footballing values. Yes I know we were spoilt under Cloughie (the only time I will mention him in this debate) but even since he left we have seen the team play wonderful football under Frank Clark (particularly the Collymore, Roy & Bohinen era). We then returned to playing with style under Paul Hart (who Doughty only appointed because he was cheap and who he never trusted). We know good football and it frustrates us all to see our team outplayed week after week.
I know from a supporters club forum a couple of years ago Nigel Doughty was asked outright why he continues to persevere with ‘long ball managers’. He claimed the game has changed and that the sort of football we used to play is no longer successful. (Clearly, he is right having seens Arsenal’s results in the last few weeks!!) Seriously, this is a blinkered (and totally incorrect!) view on football but goes a long way to explain his managerial appointments. And let’s not forget all of the appointments since he came to the club have been failures (with the exception of one season under Harty - the man he felt obliged to appoint rather than wanted). Therefore Nigel Doughty is to blame.
I know we have become a bit self critical as a group of supporters. The booing against Northampton at half time was unfortunate (almost as unfortunate as picking Scott Dobie to start the match - only joking Scott!!) However, you need to ask yourself why we go through large percentages of (home) games with a lack of atmosphere. There are two reasons I can see for this.
The first I have already covered. We play rubbish football most of the time. The opposition consistently look more comfortable on the ball than we do. This is down to the players, but ultimately the manager. The manager is Doughty’s appointment and it is therefore his fault.
The second are the perceived high ticket prices. We play most of our games to crowds of around 19,000 with increased numbers when there is either a large away following or the club runs a special offer on the game. Therefore the ground is only two thirds full. Now I know we still have far away the biggest gates in the division but how many other teams in our league have a 30,000 seater stadium. If there were league tables on the percentage of available seats sold per game we would be nowhere near the top.
It seems a false economy to me to to have a third of the ground empty every game. It also suggests that either the product is rubbish (which it is most of the time) or that the pricing is wrong (which it is all of the time). If in any other form of entertainment you only sold two thirds of the seats it would be a disaster and in all likelyhood the show or the concert etc. would have a short shelf life. Why is our ground not full ?( even if it’s free tickets for local schools etc because they’ll still buy the programmes, the shirts, the burgers and you never know they may want to come back!) You could blame Mark Arthur. You could blame Colin Calderwood. You could blame the players. You could even blame the Nottingham Forest supporters. However, ultimately you must blame Nigel Doughty.
Where do we go as supporters from here. Ultimately, we need to influence Nigel Doughty on his decisions. We need to make our voices heard (in the right way) about Mark Arthur. We need to make our voices heard (in the right way) about the way our team plays. That does not mean booing any player during a game because I support ANYONE who wears our shirt. If our manager cannot blend a team together that plays good football then we need to make our feelings known (in the right way) about the manager.
Unfortunately, part of the problem in the past has been Mr Doughty’s apparent disregard in the past to supporters feelings. He has displayed a seemingly arrogant ‘I know better than you’ attitude. Even if we do raise all of the issues, I have no faith in the man that he would actually listen. And that ladies and gentlemen is what I blame Nigel Doughty for most of all!!
Phew, finished!
Interesting stuff about Jarvis. However ultimately Doughty’s fault!!
9 March, 2007 at 7:41 pm
You are spot on again nffc. but as much as I despise MA, I feel the players must bear the brunt of the blame. Don’t get me wrong, MA should be out on his arse with the rest of the dross.
I agree about CC’s inexperience, but have faith in him. He will come good if given the time to do it. I think he needs to be a little more ruthless and not worry so much about upsetting the “group.” They’ll be none too worried when he’s sacked for their failings.
9 March, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Barrow Red that makes even better reading than the origianl article.
I can not say a single word against what you have just written Barrow because it rings home with me. Should vioces bellow out at the City Ground in anger towards Doughty at some point, I for one would most certainly be vocal in my opinions.
Sunderland, Leicester, Derby, Coventry, Sheff Wed to name a few have made things happen thanks to fan pressure, why can’t we?
We are a laughing stock at the moment.
9 March, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Aye, hard to argue Barrow Red’s points - I suppose my thoughts are tempered by the fact that until he wants to go, Doughty is an immovable object, and I’m cutting him slack for not being heavily involved in the day to day running.
It is a fair comment that the dreadful Arthur is ultimately Doughty’s choice, therefore his fault.
9 March, 2007 at 8:42 pm
The root of Forest’s problem lies with our inability to pass the ball through the midfield and retain possession. Instead the manger seems content with the current knock it long, play head tennis and give the ball away style of play. We have seem several sides now play us off the park at the City Ground, including Scunthorpe, Oldham, Blackpool and now Doncaster. What ever happened to the old Forest passing game? Add to this the manager’s constant changing of systems, and shuffling players around within dubious systems, and it is little wonder that we never play with any fluency, confidence or consistency.
Then there is the weakening of the side by letting the likes of Southall go without replacement and the manager’s failure to recognise that the midfield needs more creativity. These issues lie at the manager’s door.
9 March, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Barrow, we could always sell up and ground-share with Notts.
Well, give the ground back to the council, which owns it, and share.
Meadow Lane would be rocking with 19,000 inside!
9 March, 2007 at 9:34 pm
oooooooooooohhhhhhhhh
10 March, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Deano
Sorry but that’s not my point. We all know there are enough Forest supporters around to fill a 30000 stadium, in fact there are more than enough to fill a 40000 stadium. Why are they not coming to games? The point is under Mark Arthur’s tenure this club has not exactly been creative when trying to get people into the ground with the exception of the odd kids for a quid game.
Other clubs run all sorts of schemes to try and fill their ground. Some allow kids to have free season tickets. Some clubs when seeing possible reductions in season tickets freeze or (heaven forbid) lower prices to encourage fans to give their money up front. After all, it is lump sum payment for tickets that the club wants. They do not want supporters paying £24 on an add hoc basis. The reason for this is simple. If the club receives your money up front, it is money they can invest and possibly earn themselves interest. If it stays in your pocket and only comes out on match days, they lose this income opportunity.
Mark Arthur’s PR disasters have undoubtedly alienated certain sections of our support and we all know a number of people who have stopped going as a result. Somehow the club needs to reach out to the supporters, make them feel valued and try and get them back to matches. A full City Ground used to be an intimidating place. How many games have you been to at home this season where there has been real atmosphere? Not many.
If (and it is fast becoming a real possibility) we fail to get promotion this year, I have real concerns over the quality of the team we will have here next season. Can you really see Commons, Tyson, Prutton etc wanting to play another year in League One? Can you really see us getting 12000+ season ticket sales? Can you really see us averaging gates of 20000?
What I can see is Mark Arthur talking about adapting to a third season in League One. What I can see is a further hike in season ticket prices to cover any shortfall in sales. What I can see are gates of 15000. What I can see is a team built around the ‘promising talents coming through the academy’ with little money given to Calderwood to spend on new players.
The reason I can predict all this is because we’ve heard it all before, too many times from Mark Arthur and Nigel Doughty.
10 March, 2007 at 12:49 pm
spot on Barrow.
10 March, 2007 at 1:20 pm
@Mike Dunn
however, we have had the same problem for years. no matter which manager. no matter which players.
that suggests to me that the problems are actually much much deeper. more than 60% MA …